The Power of Personality

In this episode, I interview Eric Gee, the author of The Power of Personality. Please refer to the blog post link to find Eric's social media links. 

Transcript

Hello, everyone. This is your host, Keri Logan at Master the Upper Rooms, and I have a special guest today. I have Eric Gee. He has administrative personality. He is a based life coach for more than 20 years, and he has built a successful education company that uses his personality types and methods to better help people better live let's say a better life and to understand people in in different ways. He has coached programs like for disney and Hulu, which i found to be very very impressive and he is here to just share his wisdom and wealth of knowledge that he's acquired over the years. So welcome, everyone. This is eric Gee. How are you today? Oh, thank you for having me, Carrie. Awesome. So what kind of got you into this? 

I mean, everyone has a story of how did this lead you down this path? How did it start for you? I mean, I guess everyone's comes from when they're a kid, right? I think going to school, you're kind of told certain things that you should be like. And I mean, just coming down to like having an organizer and doing your homework, not to say you shouldn't do your homework. But I was that kid who'd like, instead of using an organizer, I just stuff my homework into my backpack. And then every year, like teachers would give you a new organizer and tell you, okay, let's try it again. So I would try it again and I would really try to make a big commitment to doing it. And three days into the school year, back to stuffing my homework into my backpack and maybe doing it, maybe not. And I think I started realizing, gosh, like either there's something really wrong with me or maybe there are just different ways to go about doing things. And so I think inherently that's how I got into like learning more about myself and learning about different people and how we're different. And then I started studying personality. 

I think when people see my personality typing methodology, since there are 16 types, I think people gravitate towards Myers-Briggs or MBTI, which I did study quite a bit. The Enneagram, DISC, all those kinds of things. And then when I started my own education company, and I ran that for about a decade, we would have about 1,000 students a year. And so I could use that to kind of test out my new methodology as I started kind of figuring out, well, you know, the old stuff didn't work as well. It wasn't as accurate. It was maybe... an oversimplification. So then, yeah, that's how I got started. And I started developing it, experimenting until I felt comfortable kind of writing a book about it. Very cool. Very, very nice. So yeah, as you said, there's what, 16 different types? There are, there are 16 different types. And more importantly, there are four specific, I call them packs because my animal or my personality types are, I use animals to symbolize them. So there are four different, 

packs. And then within those four packs, there are four animal types. So obviously 16 different personalities. Interesting. And do the personalities, can they change? You know, I don't, everyone wants to feel like they can change. I always say people don't change. We grow and we either grow into better or worse versions of ourselves. So I guess essentially that's changing, but it's more or less at least staying true to whatever your growth arc is, right? Like I think if we try to change and become someone we're not, And we try to pick up skills that maybe aren't inherently ours. We run the risk of becoming something we're not. And I don't think that's particularly healthy. And the world's hard enough as it is without trying to interact with it and navigate it being something that you're not. Right. Well, a lot of people, I mean, I think that a lot of people now are learning more about, let's say, masking. And people will mask and pretend to be something else, right? 

around one person and then act completely different and on another person. Yeah. And I don't think, you know, I mean, obviously how many television shows do we grow up watching as kids, the cartoons where they tell you, they always have that character who inherently tries to be like everybody else because they're insecure. And then they find out, Oh no, I should be happy being myself. And I, it's weird because we grow up and we watch those things. And it seems like something that you, we tell kids that, But clearly adults aren't doing that either. Of course, we mask and we try to be something just to please other people around us because we all feel somewhat insecure with ourselves, I think. Correct. So how can knowing your personality type, like say, help a person in a romantic relationship? I always say it can determine not your soulmate because I'm not a big believer in soulmates per se are perfect matches, let's say. But I think it can help us understand. 

the potential conflict will have because that tends to be consistent. Like if you're this personality type over here and you're with this person who's this personality type, you guys are going to get along a certain way and you're going to conflict a certain way and they're going to be pretty consistent based on your personality types, right? So at that point, it just becomes, can I accept this person's flaws and will this person be willing to accept my flaws? And whereas we don't try to change each other, we can grow. It doesn't mean that like, let's say you're more rigid than the other person and they're more spontaneous. even though that's actually a very common match. It doesn't mean that the rigid person will always be rigid in every situation. I think the spontaneous person can help them grow and teach them, oh, you know, certain times you want to be flexible and open up. And then the rigid person can teach the spontaneous person that there are certain times where you have to have things planned out and you can't always just, you know, do things on the fly because you just can't, right? So I think part of like accepting our differences is accepting ourselves 

mutual pathways to grow with each other, right? And I would think that that would also tie into, let's say, family relationships. Yeah, I think the number one thing, or the second thing, actually, the number one thing I get asked a lot is the romantic thing, right? Everyone was always like, okay, if I know I'm this personality type, who should I be hooking up with? But the second one, especially when working with my teachers, like when I owned my education company, I would teach my teachers how to use this. so that they could work better with their students, so that they wouldn't let their own bias affect how they're working with, you know, how they're trying to teach the kids. And invariably, like, the parents, the teachers that were parents would always be like, oh, like, and they sort of, that's how they connected. They started understanding, oh, my own kids, no wonder why I love, or I get along better with this kid, and I don't get along with this kid, especially if they had two or multiple children. They started to see, oh, it's not that I... 

obviously parents probably love their kids equally, you know, but let's face it, you know, your parent, you like kids at a different level. And I think that's where personality typing helps a lot too. At least you can understand where your conflict is, where you don't automatically assume that your kids are going to be like you, like a chip off the old block, because more often than not, they won't be. No. And I, a lot of times I think kids are here to test us and make us, make us grow and be better people because sometimes, They learn all our buttons really fast. Oh, so how do you have, are you saying that from personal experience? That sounds like personal experience. I have two kids and they are completely different. And I can see the dynamics of the personalities. And I loved how you said that, talking about personalities, because I've always said that 

You can love a person, but not like them. And what you don't really like is the personality conflict. Because as parents, yes, we do love our children, but there are some personalities we don't like. And there's some that we do like. And so I can see that when I look at my whole family dynamics, you know, the different personalities that are all... All in there. And it's it's interesting. Yes, I love my children all, you know, equally. There's some personalities that I get along better with and some I I don't. And that's I look at it is that's OK. It's just. As a parent, we have to sometimes allow our kids to go through their journey of life and And one of the ways that sometimes I would say they try to seek their independence is they could kind of push you away. And I totally get that. And I think that's, you know, allowing a child to do that, I think is really important because when you don't, then you're considered a helicopter parent. You're always hovering them. And I'll just share a quick little story. My husband was telling me that 

His sister is a helicopter parent. And she one day was talking to him going, I don't understand why my son's not talking to me. I texted him 30 times today and he didn't respond back. I left him five voicemails. Why isn't he calling me back? And I laughed, you laughed, he laughed, but she just, she doesn't get it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a personality trait, you know, that probably drives him nuts. I mean, I think it would drive a lot of people nuts, but some people can handle it. Some people can't. And it's interesting because if you were to ask them, are they like overbearing? Well, I wouldn't say overbearing, but just like smothering. They'd probably say, what? No, I'm just, I'm doing what every parent does. Correct. Which is, you know, like not what every parent does. I used to work, I was an assistant scoutmaster for a Boy Scout troop. And I was talking to one of the parents once. 

He was complaining about his kid because he was just like, I want him to take more initiative. I don't really understand why he's constantly just waiting to be told to do things. He's just got to make his own decisions and be there because he's 17 now. And of course, as someone who works with kids all the time, I'm like, yeah, that's 100%. You got to give him opportunities to really make his own decisions. This kid comes up to him and says, oh, so dad, we're doing this project and I'm going to do it like this. And this, and I was thinking maybe I'd wake up at 9 a.m. and so on and so forth. And the dad was just like, no, no, no, that's not how you do it. You got to do it like here, wake up a little earlier. And he basically like detailed everything that he wanted to do for him. And then I'm just listening to this. I'm like, oh, well, come on. Like, clearly there's a reason why your kid's not making his own decisions because you're not letting him. But I think sometimes we don't see that, you know, when we're working with people because we want to force them to go our way so much because we want that control, you know? Right, right. 

Right. Do you know who Wayne Dyer is? No. You don't. No. Is he an author? Yes. Several books. He was on PBS. He's very well known, I would say, in the spiritual community. And he shared a story about his son that I thought was so beautiful. And the story that he shared is like most people and most parents, you have a certain idea. of what you would like for your child's future. And his son didn't want to take that path. And really what his son loved was surfing. I know it sounds weird, but he found his niche in surfing where he taught people how to surf. He started his own business and became rather successful having fun, loving surfing. And what he said was, 

He realized that with him allowing his son to follow his own path and just being supportive, he found his way and kept that beautiful relationship and connection with him instead of like the example you just gave. He has no, you're supposed to do it this way and this, you have to do this, this, this, and this. Well, that might work for you, but it might not work for this other person. Yeah, we've all had parents before, right? Thankfully, I mean, we must have had some in relationship with your own parents, right? So like, it's funny that a parent would like decide, oh no, like would they want, would a parent want their parent telling them how to like parent, for lack of a better word? Like probably not. They'd be like, oh yeah, my dad and mom, they were like always telling me what to do. They didn't know anything, right? But then they pass it down to their kids, that same kind of like domineering, you know, experience. It doesn't seem to make sense, but it happens. So I'm curious to know, 

What differences about your book, how is it different from other personality books that you know out there? What makes yours unique? I think a lot of personality books focus on the external, right? Like I think extroversion, introversion is one of the bigger ones. I think there's tons of books written about introversion. And then of course, MBTI uses that dichotomy for one of its markers. And my focus was more on the internal, right? Like I think it is important what people do, but I think it's more important the reason why they do it. And the example I always give is authors, right? And I always bring up like, let's say you have Hemingway on one hand, you have Tolstoy on the other hand. They're very clearly different people because they're writing about different things and it impacts them in a different way. I don't think they're writing for the same reason. And just like that, like someone who's extroverted and outgoing, you could have two people who are both of those things, but the one person might love to do body shots in Cabo where the other person might want to like go up and preach, right? 

something that feels really important, right? And those are two different people. I don't think they're gonna be the same person because they're getting different things out of the experience, right? And I think my methodology focuses on values first, like what is someone's primary value? And then from there, it splits people up into the four different packs, right? And each pack has their primary core value. And then from there, there are four animal types like I explained earlier, but these animal types go about achieving that value in a different way So if you're within a pack, you're probably going to relate to the other animal types in that pack more than you would maybe like a pack that prioritizes like excitement, right? Versus a pack that prioritizes safety and security. Right. And I think that's a big thing because when you get to that nitty gritty of the values, we start realizing that half the population have a specific core value and they share that, which is safety and security. That makes up like half the people. 

And then you start realizing, oh, that's why there's such a thing as birth order, because birth order is kind of doesn't really make sense half the time, but the other half it does. So for some reason, we've just gone like, okay, birth order is like works because the oldest kid's always going to be this way. I'm like, no, the oldest kid is only going to be that way if they fit into that pack that makes up half the population that focuses on safety and security, because the oldest child will be, okay, it's my job as the oldest to be parentified and like, you know, make sure my Younger siblings are safe, secure. They should listen to me due to my authority. But it only works about half the time. As an older sibling or as a middle sibling who had an older sibling who is not part of that pack, I know for a fact that older siblings are not always the most responsible and conscientious. No, I agree with that because I'm a middle child also. And I was the one that... 

was in that role. And my older brother was not. He did not fit that role at all. A lot of times, I will say that I parented my younger brother. And there was moments where it was like someone needed to be the parent. So it just kind of sometimes fell on my shoulders. So to avoid like, oh, someone's got to do the dishes or else we're going to get in trouble. So... Oh, so you're the one who had to do the dishes because you're like, oh, well, I got to do it. Or if he, well, his job was to do the dishes and I had other jobs, but there was times where I would get in trouble if he didn't do the dishes. It's like, why do I get in trouble if he didn't do his job? No, that's your role. And I guess that happens sometimes in family dynamics. You never know. So I'm curious what type of, 

let's say animal personality type, do you think I am? Well, you know, you saying that, you know, just describing how you are the dutiful sibling and the parentifier. I mean, generally that falls under what I'd call the gatherer pack. They value safety and security. However, you also are doing a podcast that you're the host of a podcast that focuses on spirituality and like finding that next level understanding and knowing ourselves, right? So that gravitates more towards the shaman pack. Their motivation is knowledge or not. So I'm sorry, self-knowledge, not knowledge, self-knowledge. Then there's another pack that focuses on information. So that also could be, you know, so I'm not really giving a distinct answer right here, but I still would veer, I would still veer towards the shaman pack. You seem someone who's focused on self-knowledge quite a bit. I don't know if you, do you read a lot of self-improvement books and you, 

Yeah, basically, do you read a lot of those types of books? Yes, and a lot of books on spirituality and opening up your consciousness. What else? A lot of books on, let's say, mental health and trauma and really trying to better support my clients. Because to me, that's the biggest thing is... How can I learn something new and different? Because in, in the mental health industry, we're always learning something new and there's continued education. And I find it really fascinating because back in the day, we didn't talk about this stuff. I mean, if you went to a counselor, a therapist, you thought you had your, your nut job, you know, like you have to go to that. And it was really frowned upon. And now it's, 

it's more acceptably embraced. And honestly, we do have a mental health crisis because they call the generation that we have right now is the anxious generation. They're glued to their devices. And when I grew up, we didn't have that. I played outside. I knew all my neighbors. I had fun. I didn't sit in front of a computer for hours or stuck on a phone or tablet. And Television. You'd watch television in the morning and then it was the adult shows and you go outside and you play. Now kids can watch cartoons 24-7. Right. Yeah. And also just even the types of things you're watching now. I was reading something. I think it was an interview with Winona Ryder, who's my favorite actress, by the way, but growing up as a Gen X kid. But yeah, she was talking about the kids that she was acting with on Stranger Things. 

and how she was kind of disappointed because she herself is a big movie buff like she loves classic films and um she was talking to them and a lot of them i mean a few of them did watch movies but a lot of them she they would always ask like oh she would recommend a movie like oh you should watch this movie and they're like how long is it like their for instance first instinct is always like how long is it going to take me that i'm sitting here like that attention span maybe is not there with all the devices right because even shows maybe even like a cartoon that's like 25 minutes long might be too long of an arc for them. They want to see like a TikTok video that's like 60 seconds with someone like throwing cats up in the air or something, you know? And I think that also can be an issue, right? Because of course you're going to feel anxious if you constantly have to need all this like instant gratification. And if it's not there, then what are you going to do? You know, can you sit by yourself and actually like grow? Yes. No, it's really... 

I think it's really concerning for a lot of parents and a lot of people because we can see that like every generation, there's pros and there's cons. There always is. And I'm really hoping that things will change in an area where they realize there's a lot more to life. So just a good example, my... My son is disabled and he has a personal disability support worker. And he messaged me this weekend and he said, I went hiking today and I got to tell you, I had the most spiritual moving experience, just hiking, being one with nature. And he's like, I miss this. I need this because he can really grasp the concept of like what you were just sharing, there's instant gratification, instant gratification, but there's something so amazing just going outside and being one with nature. You know, going outside and play, taking a walk. Like kids, I used to build mud pies. Yeah, I mean, no, I totally get what you mean because it's like you're interacting with the world around you. 

as opposed to just consuming it, I think. I think I heard Jon Stewart say that once. He wasn't poo-pooing TV or movies or films, but he was saying like a book, at least the advantage you have with a book, even though maybe some people do this with a book as well, but you do have to read it. So it makes you a little more active, right? You have to like actually read the words to like consume. Whereas on a TV show or a film, you can just sit there and just watch the pretty pictures go by and not get anything from it. You know, it's just like literally just get like, Colors passing through your eyes. Yes. I took your test. Hold on. I was going to guess. I was going towards shamans. I hope I was right in that regard. Shamans. I'm conflicted between two. What are they? Pandas. Or dolphins. That would have been my guess. I'm going to guess a dolphin. I know I did it both. 

The first time I did it, I was kind of rushed. And I got the dolphin. Okay. The second time I did it and I wasn't rushed. And I did... The first time I said I was not an author. But this time I said I was. And then I got the panda. And do you feel that that one fits you more? The panda versus the dolphin? I could see both. I could literally see both because some people have said that... My personality is very charming and I'm very passionate and I know how to connect really well with people. And I know how to get to the inner core of what they're struggling with. And that it kind of blows people's minds because I can't, I mean, the list is so long. I could talk to someone for the first time and they have been in counseling for 10 years, maybe 15 years. 

And they meet me and in 10 minutes, I nail them like that. And they're just like, how do you do this? And I just know the right questions to ask and how to really, I'd say go deep because I'm not about the superficial this. I wanna get to the core of what makes you tick, what's holding you back and what's limiting you from being happy. Really, what is it that's stopping you? And so in that one area, I would say it mystifies people because you did ask on the test about magic. And a lot of people always say you have this gift. It's just magical. So that's why I picked that one word because it's not what I think about me. It's about what people have said about my personality. So that's why I kind of say it. 

But when I did the panda one, I really did relate to that because I am a mama bear. I'm a complete, complete mama bear. And I'm very loving and nurturing. And I, so I didn't, there wasn't much detail about the panda, but tell me about the panda. So the panda, I guess panda and dolphin, they're the two closest to each other. OK, not to say that they're the same. They are very different, but they are. If you're going to compare them to anyone, they'll be most similar to each other. I'd say the panda is just how you describe yourself, really. The question I always try to differentiate between the two and not to say that. Well, I'll ask you the question. Were you a good student as a kid? Would you say you were a good student? 

I would say, yes, I was a good student, but I was not a student where the grades really mattered a lot to me. It was more the subject matter. And so a good example is I hate math. I literally hate it. And I took algebra. This is going to shock a lot of people. I took it four times and failed. But I got all the tests correct. I did study groups. I did all of that. But when I would get the test in front of me, I would black out. I would forget all the answers. And I back then asked the teacher, can I just take the test in your office or somewhere else? I guess it was test anxiety. And he said, no. So I never I never passed. And but then I was told, were you going to suck in science and all these other subjects? No, I got A's. 

Those were easy peasy for me. So it's hard to answer that question because part of it is, yes, I was a good student. I didn't get in trouble or anything, but there were some classes. If I didn't like the subject, I didn't like the subject. Right. And that's a good, I mean, the way you described that was a very panda way. I would probably say more so because when you talk about anxiety and test taking anxiety, because really the question is more designed to see like, did you take it seriously versus like, you So soon being a good student, just getting straight A's or something. But it's like you did take your studies seriously and that you did do the things that you felt would help you. But then, of course, you just had test anxiety for specifically math, whereas other other shamans will just not take school as seriously. Like they'll just always they might get in trouble quite a bit or they just might be like, I don't know. I forgot like what I did. I don't remember, you know, like which seems like not what you were not what you experienced. So, yeah, like a panda is like. 

They are a shaman, once again. They tend to do counseling, but within a structural setting, right? So let's say there are four shamans, and I generally split the four into these kinds this way. So the dolphins and the pandas are over here, and they focus on people first. That's their priority. The other two focus on principles first. So obviously, all shamans love people and principles, right? Ethics and... morale go hand in hand. It's just when push comes to shove, pandas and dolphins will always choose people first versus the baboons and the humpback whales who will choose their principals first. That's how I separate those two. Pandas are a lot more pragmatic. The example I give it in the book is if you have a panda teacher and they have this really cool curriculum that they're using and that they designed, but it doesn't follow what's the school standard, 

And the principal comes and says, hey, you got to like, you know, you can't do this anymore. I know it's working, but you just can't do it because that's not the school standards. A panda will try to assimilate their curriculum to fit the standards. But at the end of the day, they will give up what's been working because in their minds, like, well, yeah, I have to do it because if I'm not here to help the kids and who's going to help the kids. So, you know, the kids come first. If you ask a baboon or a humpback whale, they'll probably be like, no, I'm just going to do this and see how long it lasts. Like, screw it. you know, because that's what I believe in. The flip side, of course, is that, you know, they could get in trouble and get fired, right? It seems courageous, but they could get fired. So I always use Dead Poets Society as a great example of that. Have you ever seen the movie Dead Poets Society? He's very clearly a baboon personality type. He was one of the shamans. He was very big on what he believed. But of course, the flip side is that, you know, we all know what happens at the end of the movie. Yes. Well, I can see what... 

You mentioned where I put people first because I do. I mean, in my household, I take care of the animals first. I take care of my kid first. And I'm always last. Like my husband will say to me, have you had breakfast yet? And it will be 12 o'clock. And I'm like, no, I haven't eaten. I was doing this, this, taking care of everybody else. And I didn't have time to eat. So I... I get it. I always, I always do put people first and I kind of sometimes go a little, take that extra mile to, to support people. I mean, that's why I did this podcast was to educate and support people and, and, and hopefully it does something good. And just when you said like you did the dishes or you parentified, like, because your brother didn't take on that task, like that's a very panda thing. They can be very self, 

shamans in general can be very self-sacrificing people. Um, and just the fact that you've not, I won't say you forgot to eat, but like that didn't occur to you. That can also be a very shaman thing because they're not, we're not, the shamans are not always in connect with their body, their physical space, not as much as other types. So other types, like let's say a gatherer, they'll focus on their kids as well, but they'll also focus on themselves knowing that they'll keep a structure like, oh, I know i need to eat like breakfast because then i'm gonna get tired. And then, So a little bit more practical, whereas the shamans aren't as practical as some of the other personality types. But once again, that's why that also plays in one of their strengths, right? They're not necessarily seeing the concrete things around them. They're kind of trying to dig deeper into the abstract things specifically with human beings, right? Like, oh, what's driving this person? What's their motivation? What's going on? So, you know, the weakness, of course, is sometimes shamans forget. Oh, did I eat? Oh, I forgot to eat. Oh, I guess I should eat. You know, they kind of just sometimes those things 

fall by the wayside. Yes. So what is, what's your personality? What's, what's yours? What animal are you? I'm a baboon. So, I mean, and I always say that it's not the most flattering animals. So that tell people when they get their animal, they don't like it. Like people, I always say people get beavers tend to not like being a beaver. You know, they think it's boring. And I'm like, hey, man, I'm a baboon. That's not very flattering. So don't complain. You know, like, of course, everybody wants to be a fox, you know, but, you know, not everyone can be a fox. You tell a fox, they're a fox. Yeah, I'm cool. You know, like, unfortunately, that's not the case with most personality animals or animal personality types. So, yeah, I'm a baboon, which is another shaman type, actually. It's on the other side. So we're principals first. So, yes, I did. 

so when people ask me that question, whether i was a good student in school i say no i wasn't right um because i was always in trouble and i was a class clown. I was talking in the back of class. I always sat in the back of the class if i could. Unfortunately, my last name starts with G. So then if it's alphabetical, I'm somewhere in the front or in the middle right um i wish my last name was wong and then i'd always be in the back um so yeah i'm a baboon and baboons are a little bit more subversive than pandas. I mean, shamans in general are subversive. to a certain extent, because they're kind of like trying to see things deeper and in a way kind of questioning the social order. And then baboons are one of the most subversive shaman types, which is why we're constantly in trouble. So yeah, that's my personality type. So tell me about your education program that you have. I owned an education company for about a decade. Now, I still coach. I do a lot of life coaching. 

And writing coaching. So oftentimes people hire me as a writing coach. And that's how I got started with the life coaching. Even though a personality typing and the way I taught it was vital to my education company. On a one-on-one basis, I mainly coached writing because that's my academic background. I majored in screenwriting. That was just my thing, which is important with characters and stuff, right? Understanding characters, you got to know. But what I found was, you know, when you teach writing, it's basically... I think a lot of times people think, oh, it's going to be grammar or structure and you should write your essays this way. And I'm always like, well, number one, an essay is like one of the most boring things you can write, or at least the way it's taught is incredibly boring. And I always tell my students and my parents that it's just that English teachers teach essay writing because it's really easy for them to correct. You know, they can easily just like go, okay, does that have a thesis? Does it have like these kinds of things? Even though anyone who's written a really well-written essay knows that 

it's not cookie cutter like it's taught, right? Like anyone who reads like David Sedaris or Emerson knows that there's their own personal voice and flow. And so I realized in teaching writing, it really was more or less teaching kids or students how to find their own voice, how to express what they're feeling and their thoughts were in a way that was unique to them and that felt natural. And I realized you can't teach someone what their voice is or to find their own voice and till you teach them to find themselves. And I think that's where the life coaching kind of came in. And I've been doing it ever since. So I teach writing and life coaching concurrently. I think that's beautiful because a lot of people, it depends on where you grew up and what your family was like and society and culture. And for some people, it's like they could be taught, well, your voice doesn't matter. Your opinion doesn't matter. 

And when they're writing something and you're wanting them to express themselves, they don't know how because they've created that wall. And so I think it's beautiful. You're giving this gift of, no, let's find your authentic self. Let's open up your voice, which is the voice of creativity. And then you just, it's, you can, it's almost like you can open a floodgate and all this beautiful things start to come out. And it, really changes a person's life and their perspective. Like, oh yes, I do matter. My opinion does matter. And I can, even though I can't say verbally, maybe what I want to say, I can write it. Yeah. I think it's that getting rid of that fear. Like you were saying, people don't feel like their opinions matter. And so that's, and especially the way they say it, like I'll talk to students. Well, first I'll read their writing. Like, and it'll be just like very, very, 

I won't say forced, but kind of. Like, they're writing in a way that they think people want to hear. Like, so if I ask someone about, like, what's their least favorite class? Because I always try to focus on negative emotions first because negative emotions come out easier. You know, and I have a kid who's like, well, I don't like my teacher. So then I had to write about, like, the class. And she was like, oh, this teacher, I do not particularly like math class. I'm like, is that how you'd write it? Is that how you'd talk? Like, what do you think about math class? And when they start talking, then they just – speak naturally math class sucks because you know and they're like write that and they're like wait write that i'm like yeah write what your voice is and of course we'll sharpen it up a little bit once you start writing what your thoughts and feelings are um coming out of you but like you know we'll sharpen it but at the very beginning you gotta just like say what write what comes natural you know it's okay to say something sucks you know like it's better than saying i do not like this class because i do not like this class takes up way more words than this class sucks 

you know, and so i think they're often surprised by that, um, that when they're talking, it's way more interesting to me, um, than when they're actually writing. And I'm like, you should always be honest and interesting. That's the two number one things for writing be honest be interesting everything else does not matter. Well, what you just said is i tell a lot of people is get the word vomit out. Yeah, because there's, and it's true. There's a, we can express ourselves negativity so easily But it's a lot harder when it comes to being vulnerable or showing that other side of ourselves. So thank you for sharing that. That was a beautiful insight. So where can people find you, Eric? Where? Oh, well, you know, I do have social media. I'm not great with it. But the best thing is I have a website. We'll have two websites. And people always ask, why do you have two websites? Like, well, one's a WordPress site. So we have articles on personality types. 

You can actually take like the test that you took and that's on utopiaproject.com. And I always say that's you like YouTube because it's about you. So utopiaproject.com, you can find the test. And then if you want to learn more about my life coaching, it's projectutopia.com. And of course you can find the book, The Power of Personality, and that's like on Amazon or anywhere you can buy books. Okay. Is it on Audible? No. that is the only thing, and I've been asked that, and it's the only thing that it is not on yet, and, you know, I need to talk to my publishers about that to put it on audible because it is not. It's out, it's coming out tomorrow actually in Germany, in German. So it's funny, there's a German version, but there's not an audible version. Yes, so maybe there'll be an audible version in German. I don't know, maybe that's, I have a different German publisher, so they maybe they'll be like, yeah, let's put it in German that which would be awesome to hear. 

Yeah, well, just why I ask is I'm a huge Audible person. And when I drive in my car, that's all I really listen to is audiobooks because I don't have a lot of time to read, but I still like to learn new things. So Audible's my go-to. So that might be something. Yeah, if my publisher doesn't want to do it, then I got to find a way for me to do it because I've been asked that quite a bit. Okay, cool. Well, I'm going to also create a blog post with all your information, contacts, because I know sometimes when a person is driving in their car, they can't stop and like, oh, I need to find out how I can find this. So just let all the listeners know if you want to learn more about Eric Gee, there is on Master the Upper Rooms a blog post section and all his information will be on there. So anything else before we wrap it up that you'd like to share with anyone? 

I guess the only thing would be the most important thing to be happy is to be yourself, you know, find out what you like to do and go after it. That's very good words of advice. Well, it has been a great pleasure connecting with you today. And I look forward to learning more about your book. I'm going to check it out and, and, and I might see what my son is actually have my son take the test and see what he gets. There's a detailed portrait of the panda in the book as well. So, you know, much more so than on my website, which is only like a paragraph, I think. Well, I'm excited. So you have a fantastic day. And it was great to get to know you, Eric. Thanks so much for talking with me, Kerie. Okay. All right. Bye.